In the past few weeks, I've been reading several debates about intelligent design on several blogs. There were some remarkably uninformed comments from both sides concerning evolution. We'll put aside the whole freedom of speech issue and whether intelligent design should be taught to give a primer on where evolutionary theory stands today. I think both sides will find it surprising. (Wait, keep reading. I promise it's not as boring as it sounds. And one other thing, don't assume that you know where I stand in the debate from this post. I'll be covering my stance and why I believe the way I do later. This post is about information.)
First, let's start with Charles Darwin. Darwin's theory basically stated that natural selection was capable of producing new species. Here's a definition for you from Princeton's web site: Natural selection is the process in which some organisms live and reproduce and others die before reproducing. Some life forms survive and reproduce because they are better suited to environmental pressures, ensuring that their characteristics are perpetuated. This is also called "survival of the fittest."
Darwin's idea was that you start with one simple organism, say a finch. Place several finches in different environments like separated islands. Each island has unique characteristics. One island has plenty of water, one island is dry, one has a certain prey species and another has a different prey species. Then you let the finches breed. Over time, finches that have a physical advantage (for instance, a stronger beak that allows them to open clams easier) will survive longer and breed more, allowing their characteristics (stronger beak, hook-shaped beak, etc.) to be passed on to their offspring. You keep this up for long enough, and eventually the various finches on the different islands look different and act different. Allow centuries to pass, and eventually they can't breed with each other anymore. (Read more about Darwin's finches here.) You probably studied this in high school and assumed that covered the theory of evolution.
But it might surprise you to realize that most evolutionists no longer believe that natural selection is the sole engine of evolution. In fact, some evolutionists think Darwin's theory is quaint and hopelessly outdated and believe his real significance is simply that he raised the idea that a natural process could produce complicated organisms.
Why would they desert Darwin in this way? Well, natural selection as an evolutionary engine has a flaw in it. Let's consider birds for instance. A current theory has birds evolving from reptiles. It's easy to produce an evolutionary chain that leads to a bat-like creature. (A reptile that jumps well can catch more prey than one that doesn't. It produces more offspring who pass on this characteristic to its young. Young that have larger webs between their toes and lighter bones jump farther. They pass on these characteristics. Eventually you have a reptile that leaps off a rock and then glides. It passes on those characteristics, and so on, and so on.) However, feathers are a problem. Since a parent reptile doesn't have feathers to begin with, why would its offspring? You can create a chain, of course, that leads to feathers, perhaps starting with a parent born with thicker hair and that hair is somehow an advantage which allows it to breed more, and eventually you produce a complicated feather ... But when you add into the adaptations that had to take place to produce such a complicated organism that can fly -- particularly in the time frame in which the fossil record seems to show it happened -- you don't have enough time to do so unless each change was precisely the change needed to produce that feather. (Intelligent design proponents say something had to be directing those changes. This is one of their major arguments.)
However, since the development of modern genetics in the 1940's, evolution has been defined as a change in the frequency of alleles (or alternative forms of a genetic characteristic) in a population from one generation to the next. In other words, you X-Men fans, mutations!
Natural selection, however, hasn't been discarded. Today it's thought that evolution is powered by a combination of various things, including genetic drift (the change in frequency in which a gene appears in a population, through mutation, regardless of the adaptive value of the mutation), gene flow (changes in population structure) and ta-da, natural selection.
Why these changes in evolutionary thought? Because of evolution's biggest problem: time. There's not enough time for natural selection to make the changes necessary. Yes, geologists say the world is billions of years old (4.5 at last estimate), but see, life itself only occupies a small portion of that time, and multi-cellular organisms even less, and man only a tiny fragment. Natural selection is not an intelligent process like a cattleman breeding a better stock. Natural selection has to have time for blunders and dead-ends. And from the fossil records, evolutionists knew they needed something else.
Enter the late Dr. Stephen Gould who proposed the "punctuated equilibrium" theory of evolution. To quote from the Minnesota State University archives: "His most famous argument for punctuated equilibrium is the panda's 'thumb.' This is a modification of the wrist bone that allows the panda to strip leaves from bamboo shoots which Gould argued must have occurred all at once or it would not have been preserved by natural selection ... Gould wrote a book entitled The Panda's Thumb for which he received two awards, the Notable Book Citation from the American Library Association in 1980, and the American Book Award in Science in 1981." Basically Gould said that rapid change could occur in a species, almost overnight. And the fossil record so far supports this. (Once again, this point is used to intelligent design proponents to bolster their argument. They ask, "After all, isn't it possible that something is directing these sudden changes?")
At this junction, I should point out that there are many variations on the theory of evolution, and not all evolutionary scientists accept Gould's theory or genetic drift or natural selection for that matter. Some of these battles are quite bitter with name-calling and shoving and general all-around bad behavior. It's a lot of fun to watch.
Anyway, mutations were proposed as a way for that change to take place. Example: a parent creature doesn't have wings, but its offspring suddenly do. That seems to be our solution, but wait, once again there's a problem. This one is more subtle than the previous one suffered by natural selection, but it still comes back to time. Mutation is a blind process; it has to be if you don't buy into the intelligent design school of thought. Mutations need time to reproduce. And the majority of the mutations will not be beneficial. So to produce new creatures, we need a lot of mutations, and they need a lot time -- once again more than seems to be shown in the fossil record. I say "seems to be shown" because there's a lot of controversy in this. A LOT.
Some scientists say that the fossil record is misleading and that we don't have enough fossils to really tell when an organism evolved. Others search for more "missing link" organisms, particularly those who are opposed to Gould's theory. Others are working in the labs, decoding genes in an attempt to show that genetics by itself can produce new organisms. And still others discount all of this for other theories or take parts of each theory to use.
Does it sound confusing? It is. Many people are surprised by all this, believing that science is united by its belief in the theory of evolution. But evolutionists are at least united in this: Organisms change over time. These changes eventually produce new organisms different from their ancestors.
But what causes those changes? As you can tell, even among evolutionists, that's debatable.
33 comments:
Wow. This was interesting despite being about science. :)
In reading it over, I left out another group of scientists who think several of the theories have some truth in them.
Fascinating. If more science books were in everyday language like this post is, maybe people would know more about science.
As a Christian, I believe God created the heavens and earth. I'm a bit fuzzy on how that happened, but I'm not sure it matters since it happened a long time ago.
I think the real reason Christians are so upset about evolution is that scientists routinely attack God inside and outside class. I remember quite well my college instructor telling us that since there was no proof of God, no intelligent person would ever believe in God. He also told us that he never gave an A to anyone who believed in any higher power as it meant they couldn't think. Since I was lucky to be pulling Bs, I didn't complain, but a few students dropped out. It left a sour taste in my mouth for years.
I am curious, Tech, about your stance on this. I'm also looking forward to your next installment on this.
This is interesting but I find strange that a Christian would spend so much time giving information about evolution. But I won't start up the debate again about a Christian author's duty. :)
Gloria put her finger right on the problem. Scientists want us to respect their point of view but they won't respect ours. Being told I'm dumb for believing in God doesn't make me want to listen to anything else they say. I find most of the commenters on this subject on Erudite's blog to be smug and even self-righteous in their attacks on intelligent design. Since I've often been accused of that, maybe both sides could do with a sit-down and talk. I know Christians are willing, but you can bet scientists aren't.
This is the most erudite piece of writing I've ever seen here.
Who are you and what have you done with Tech???
JUST KIDDING. :-)
--ER
Why, thank you, ER. And don't be discouraged, little guy. I'm sure if you keep blogging, you will have something as erudite show up on your blog eventually ... :)
I'm sure the late Stephen Gould would just be delighted to be enlisted as an ally of intelligent design, and "most evolutionists" would be pleasantly surprised to learn that natural and sexual selection are not the primary engine of species change.
Anyway, since I covered much the same ground as you may intend, but from the opposite standpoint, you might be interested in the four entries beginning:
http://enemypeople.blogspot.com/2005/02/creation-science-i-philosophy-of.html
As a side comment, top scientists probably do sit down with Christians on a fairly regular basis - in church, as fellow Christians. They don't sit down to talk with Christians about science because Christians as Christians don't have anything to bring to that conversation. More interesting to me is why ordinary Christians-as-Christians don't sit down on a semiweekly basis with Muslims, Wiccans and Scientologists until they've resolved their minor doctrinal differences, and then come talk to the few of us who remain outside the spiritual community.
Your brain never ceases to amaze me. You're one of those people I could sit and listen to for hours.
Apprehension gets the better of me, but I have to say that I find learning about other religions, including scientology, helps me to better understand my own chosen Faith. And, cause it is really interesting :P
Re: "I'm sure the late Stephen Gould would just be delighted to be enlisted as an ally of intelligent design, and "most evolutionists" would be pleasantly surprised to learn that natural and sexual selection are not the primary engine of species change."
I doubt the late Stephen Gould would be delighted nor did I say that he would be. Dr. Gould was a stout advocate of evolution his entire life. That other people use his work in way that he did not intend is certainly no reflection on him. It's important to note that his theory was produced as an attempt to explain the paucity of transitional forms between phyla in the fossil record. It was not an attempt to disprove evolution.
Likewise, saying that most evolutionists would be surprised that natural selection is not sole (I never said primary) engine of evolution is incorrect. So I have collected these citations for you. I hope you will find them as illuminating as I did.
Evolution: The Triumph of an Idea by Carl Zimmer. (2002) Perennial.
Evolution: The Remarkable History of a Scientific Theory by Edward J. Larson. (2004) Modern Library.
What Evolution Is by Ernst Mayr. (2002) Basic Books.
Adaptation and Natural Selection: A Critique of some Current Evolutionary Thought by G.C. Wiliams. (1966) Princeton University Press.
Endless Forms Most Beautiful: The New Science of Evo Devo and the Making of the Animal Kingdom by Sean B. Carroll. (2005) W. W. Norton & Company.
The Wedge of Truth: Splitting the Foundations of Naturalism
by Phillip E. Johnson. (2000)
InterVarsity Press.
Icons of Evolution: Science or Myth? Why Much of What We Teach About Evolution Is Wrong
by Jonathan Wells. (2002) Regnery.
Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution
by Michael J. Behe. (1998) Touchstone.
Mere Creation: Science, Faith and Intelligent Design
edited by William A. Dembski. (1998) InterVarsity Press.
Tower of Babel: The Evidence Against the New Creationism
by Robert T. Pennock. (2000)
Bradford/MIT Press.
Of them all, I found Icons of Evolution and Tower of Babel as being the most readable and approachable. I also found Endless Forms interesting, but he wanders a bit and over-makes his points. But it's still worth reading. You find a couple of Intelligent Design books in the list that you might find interesting at least in that you will know what the Tower of Babel is talking about.
And finally, I doubt your posts are at the opposite side of this one since I didn't take sides. I tried to deliver information in a balanced fashion. But I intend to state my position in the weeks to come. Please stay tuned.
I'm sorry - is your reading list meant to credential yourself or to meme me on my reading in evolutionary theory?
If you really don't believe you haven't already tipped your even-handed hand, you may want to reread the rhetoric of your post, already playing to the amen gallery. You may also find some useful reading yourself in the posts I've already mentioned.
I take that back - I saw your nature-worship poem. You may still surprise.
Hi Tech.
Wow! I never expected you to weigh in on this subject.
One question though.
Dr, Gould maintains, if I understand you right, that Pandas suddenly evolved a thumb and now all pandas have them.
I went to the World Book site and found this information about pandas:
"The female giant panda gives birth once a year to one or two cubs."
My question is this: If one panda suddenly grows an opposable thumb to help it eat, wouldn't more than one of it's offspring have to be born with it in order to continue that addition in the species? Are one or two cubs enough to continue the mutation?
I'm not arguing, I really want to know.
Tstockman, the reading list consisted of books in my library. I thought you'd find them interesting if you hadn't read them. But apparently you wish to be rude. I will not indulge in childish flame wars or waste my time in delivering tit-for-tat. Accordingly I will delete any other comments from you on this subject. This is the reason I rarely post about current events as it seems to bring out the worst in people. I doubt I will post any more on this. It doesn't seem worth it.
Mark, Gould's book is the best source to answer your question, but yes, the mutation would have to manifest itself in more than one cub. I suspect you've read a few intelligent design books yourself since one of their arguments is that mutations would not be widespread enough to change a species. (Interestingly enough, this was also leveled at him by evolutionists critical of his theory.) Gould believed that when enviromental conditions were right, mutations would arise to fill the need. Since the enviroment was widespread, so would be the mutations.
I thank everyone for their discussion of this.
Yeah Tstock I don't believe in God either but I'm not a jerk about it.
Tech, don't you find reading books by people hostile to your faith influences you? I'm not trying to argue. I'm just curious if you spend as much time reading the Bible as you do reading other things. And please don't take that as a judgment. I just remember the old programmers slogan of "garbage in, garbage out."
Slim, I will pray for you. And that is also meant in a nice way.
Frankly, Patriot, I don't see how much Tech reads the Bible as being anything you should be questioning him about. Why don't you see to your own salvation first and then worry about everyone else later? But maybe you think you have. If so, then re-read some of the parts about loving and being kind to your fellow man.
Are you judging me, Gloria? I think the Bible has something to say about that too as I recall.
I read my Bible through once a year if anyone is interested.
Patriot, what are you afraid of? Fear is the opposite of faith.
You seem to be afraid of everything! One poem made you almost frantic. The idea of reading something that might "influence" your faith sems to make you nervous, a mild form of fear.
Are you so weak in your own faith that you must doubt that of others, based on a few words on a computer screen?
Are you a real person or are your comments some kind of field experiment in phsychology of religion? I find it hard to believe that someone as up-to-speed as you seem to be generally remains so willfully and stubbornly AFRAID of so much.
Yeesh. And I AM being judgmental, not of your relationship with God, which I think is the no-no, but of your relationship with others -- and with yourself. :-)
TECH, don't let the rudesters, or the fraidy-cats, keep you from writing any ol' thing you want to or need to! We all learn something every time we stop by here.
--ER
I'm not afraid Erudite. Your judgment is flawed but I've read your blog. It doesn't surprise me.
I'm only trying to understand where Tech is coming from. I can't understand how he's capable of holding so many conflicting beliefs. I apologize to him if it seems like I'm attacking him.
Patriot, if you're truly not attacking Tech, then I apologize if I was harsh. I'm protective of Tech because I've found him to be an unique individual. He has a clear, intelligent way of looking at things that I admire and find myself agreeing with more often than not. His ability to combine his faith with his life is something I strive for. And I think he writes humor better than any other blog I've read. I guess I'm the president of his fan club! :)
Here we go.
Slim, Gloria and ER, I appreciate your support.
Patriot, I'm not afraid of knowledge. Since you keep asking, I am a Christian, but God gave me a brain. I assume He wants me to use it. He made a huge universe for us to explore and learn about. I'm not about to suggest that He was wrong to do so. Are you?
Might as well get this out there: Yes, I believe God created us. Like Gloria I'm fuzzy on the details. More importantly, I don't care about the details. I've never expected science to answer questions of faith, and I don't expect faith to answer the questions of science. Science deals with the seen and known, and faith deals with the unseen and the unknown.
I am both a man of faith and a man of science. People have told that you can't be both. That's their inability, not mine. Science can take us only so far. There is a limit to human knowledge. Faith stands beyond those limits. I embrace both.
People tell me that there is no physical proof that God exists. Likewise, you can't supply proof many things exist that are important to us. Grind the universe to dust, sift through the remains, and you will find not one molecule of love or one atom of freedom or any fragment of the other ideals that we struggle and die for. Yet we know they exist in the core of our beings. I know God exists in the core of my being, and I am content.
On the subject of evolution, I think it is undeniable that organisms change over time. Is that the mechanism that God used to produce us? I don't think so, but if so, fine. It not, fine. It doesn't matter to me. Science can never prove God doesn't exist just as it can never prove He does. That's not what science is for.
A quick Q&A guaranteed to offend someone:
Should intelligent design be taught in science class? No. It hasn't passed any test for science. At present, intelligent design proponents limit themselves to attacking evolution. They need to be producing new, original scientific evidence that supports their theory and build their case. Even if they could prove evolution was wrong, it doesn't follow that they are automatically right.
Should the problems that evolution faces and the different theories of evolution be taught? Yes. This is all part of the larger problem of science education in the United States. For instance, you can find plenty of studies on the Net where high school science textbooks have errors, errors that the teachers are unaware of and continue to teach. We are producing fewer and fewer scientists, and our nation will pay for that in the long run.
Should religion be taught in school? Yes. World history and culture has been shaped by various religions. Students should know that. (And I do mean all the religions. We tend to focus on Christianity, but Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, etc. have all left their mark on the world for good or ill.)
Should students be allowed to pray at school? As long as it's on their breaks or lunch periods, and they don't disrupt school and don't use it to hassle students who don't, sure.
Should students be allowed to witness at school? As long as it's on their breaks or lunch periods, and they don't disrupt school activities or use it to hassle students who don't share their faith, sure.
Should the Ten Commandants be allowed to be on court buildings? Sure. In fact, we should have displays from various world religions. (We can decide which get displayed by number of people who hold that faith.) Most have some type of code similar to the Ten Commandants. Our failing judicial system needs all the help it can get. You cannot find any evidence that such displays harm or for that matter help. It's a culture call. But it was good enough for Hammurabi, it's good enough for me … (That's a joke for those who are humor impaired. Look him up.)
Should a teacher be allowed to pray (and be seen by students) or witness to students at school? No. Teachers have enough problems without expecting them to also be responsible for the souls of their students. They shouldn't be allowed to attack any faith or lack of faith, either.
Schools should provide knowledge, not advocacy. Except … here, just to infuriate my fundamentalist friends, sex education. I believe sex education should be a required course. I believe we should supply free condoms to every student. I believe we should teach our children to act responsibly about sex and make provisions for when they don't. I'm tired of children having babies, of young lives being scarred by STDs and dying of AIDS. What is wrong with us that we allow this to happen? Grow up, people, and do it now.
Of course, I don't expect much of what I'm saying to stick. We as a species are remarkably lacking in common sense. I'm sure you have different viewpoints on much of this. I'm okay with you having your viewpoint. I hope you're okay with me having mine. But if you're not, learn to live with disappointment.
By the way, how are you people able to post so much during the day? Don't you have jobs? :)
I'm sure you have different viewpoints on much of this. I'm okay with you having your viewpoint. I hope you're okay with me having mine. But if you're not, learn to live with disappointment.
That, in a nutshell, is what I was trying to say in the debate about the poem. Patriot's mistake is in assuming that all people who call themselves Christian have exactly the same definition of what that means. His ideas about what Tech writes, and his advice about what he should write, are dependent on Tech believing exactly the same things about being a Christian that he believes. But Christians don't agree about what it means to be a Christian anymore than any group of people agree about anything. And that's why Tech can have beliefs Patriot thinks are conflicting, but that work for Tech. :)
Linda
Well, that was enlightening. Tech, re: "Of course, I don't expect much of what I'm saying to stick. We as a species are remarkably lacking in common sense. I'm sure you have different viewpoints on much of this."
You are right, in my opinion. We are all much too arrogant about our own opinions to change our minds about anything which we feel passionate about. At least, without giving someone else's opinions serious open minded consideration. And that is something that us arrogant fools won't usually do.
I don't necessarily agree that all of us lack common sense, though. I think it's more a matter of pride than of a lack of common sense, although it could be argued that the two go hand in hand. "Pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall".
That could just as easily be interpreted as "pride tends to negate common sense".
I'm always cast as the bad guy on this blog even though I am sincere in my questions and only want the truth. But I'm not gay, Mormon, pagan or atheist which is the audience Tech panders to. I have one question for him and for you. If you died today are you going to Heaven? That's really the only important question in this world. I apologize for upsetting people. I'll be quiet now.
Patriot, I think you are selling Tech short, he dosen't pander to a specific audience as you said.
I am a Christian and yes I know where I am going, but do you?
Tech, I think you should run for President, I would cast the first vote for you!!
Susan2
LOL. Patriot do seem to have a way of puttin' his foot in it.
Patriot, come visit my blog, all viewpoints welcome there!
You can be as judgemental as you want and I don't delete anyrhing for any reason.
Ah, the key question is NOT "If you died today are you going to heaven?" Because most people think so, for wrong reasons.
The key question is "If you died today and stood before God and he asked you, 'Why should I let you into my heaven?' what would you say?"
The basic answer is something along the lines of this:
"Only because of Your profound and inexplicable gift of salvation through Christ and your even more profound grace, which enables me to believe."
Note: "The devils believe and tremble."
One of the words translated "believe" in this context in the New Testament shares the same root, I think, with "recline." Also, trust, rely on, etc.
The difference being:
To stand and look at the chair I'm sitting in and say "I believe in that chair" is one thing. For me to execute my belief by sitting in it is another. I believe is this chair and I am sitting in it, and all that that implies.
I believe in Jesus and am reclining in his work on the Cross -- as mysterious and unlikely and, well, as fantastic as it sounds -- and trusting in God's grace for salvation and as the foundation of my relationship with Him.
Patriot, you don't know jack about me. You want a debate on theology, church polity, Scripture, trying to live a Christian life in a confusing world or anything else -- Bring. It. On.
Over at my joint. I have too much respect for Tech to mess his place up any more. But I've HAD it with religious arrogance gone to seed -- and Tech, bein' a farm boy, will know what that means: Self-propagating.
--ER
Patriot, I spent a lot of time thinking about how I would reply to you, even going so far as to talk to my pastor about it.
My Southern Baptist pastor read the whole post and then the comments.
I asked him what my reply should be be.
My pastor looked at me and said, "Why are you wasting your time on someone who isn't going to listen? He's already made his mind up. Shake off his dust and move on to better works. You can't reach everyone. Don't get bogged down. God has things for you to do. Get on with them. It's up to this Patriot fellow to work out his own salvation. He's not God's voice on earth. God speaks to each of us."
Good advice, and I'm going to take it.
You have a wise pastor, Tech. :)
Linda
Even though Tech apparently doesn't think I'm worth the time I just want to say that everything I said was motivated by God's unending love. May be I don't say things well but I meant well. Thats all I wanted to say.
"Patriot" you make me tired. Your the type of Christian that I'm used to. Judgmental, mean, and closeminded. I can respect Tech's faith because he seems to practice what he preaches. Pandering is not the same as being welcoming. Tech welcomes. If you had a blog I would never go there again. The world has enough haters in it already.
I don't think Tech was saying you weren't worth his time, Patriot. He was saying that arguing with you wasn't worth his time. It's not worth anyone's time. That's not because you're not worth it, but because the argument itself isn't going anywhere. It's just noise and confusion. I think you might want attention. There are better and more Christian ways to get it than ceaselessly attacking a fellow Christian. And I will pray for you, Patriot. I will pray that God wraps His arms around you and opens your heart to His fulfilling, everlasting love.
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